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Budo- 10-12-2008
Is Lineage Important In Martial Arts?
Is lineage important in martial arts, why?

aikihell- 10-27-2008
Is lineage important in martial arts, why?
Martin In answer to your question you may find my article on thje subject of interest. Is Lineage in the Martial Arts Important ? I still believe it is very important if you earn it, rather than steal it from the deceased Budo masters. By Henry Ellis Co-author of Positive Aikido Sadly we live in an age where so many members of the various Martial Arts are no longer prepared to work their way through life to earn the respect and the all important `lineage ` that comes with many years of study with either one or many budo masters. These are experiences with the training - Etiquette - Discipline that no amount of money could buy, as with my own experiences with Kenshiro Abbe Sensie from 1957 which I treasure above all else. There are now many martial artists who claim to have very dubious lineage to Abbe Sensie and claiming that either they or their teacher was a " Great Friend of Abbe Sensie " I do of course realise that this BS goes on with the abuse of of the proud names of many other deceased Budo masters. The www.KenshiroAbbe.com web site and its contributors are either direct or indirect students of Kenshiro Abbe Sensei. Students, who would never refer to themselves as `friends` of Abbe Sensei, simply as `privileged students`. The visitor will notice that there is a distinct absence on the web site of references or contributions from any of the growing number of people who call themselves `friends` of Abbe Sensei. Their dubious comments are always deleted from the Kenshiro Abbe guestbook. Budo and the Internet With the advent of computers and the internet, we are now deluged with information that previously would have been unavailable or very difficult to find. Due to this new access to World wide information, we are now seeing so many claims to have been a direct student or friend of many of the great and sadly deceased Budo masters. At the same time the internet offers us the opportunity to research the people making these claims and often expose them. In recent years I have been amazed by the amount of people who are prepared to simply sit back and allow any individual or organisation to not only corrupt our Budo history, but also the proud lineage of our Budo and that of our teachers. I have seen so many times where people have written such comments as “Does it matter ?” ( Yes! it does matter ) --- “ Who cares “. --- ( I for one care ) “ I could not care less ! just get on the mat and practice “ ( Where do you think the knowledge comes from that you can now get on the mat and practice ) I find it hard to understand how anyone with that attitude would want to be involved in the Martial Arts at all. After all, the very core of our Budo spirit is our Lineage. If the true Lineage and the History is corrupted, what do we have to offer the future generations who will know no different. Privileged Students The late William ( Bill ) Woods Sensei, was the secretary and personal aide to Abbe Sensei, from his arrival to the UK in 1955. He was later instrumental in creating the British Judo Council (BJC ) and the other various Budo Councils, reaching a membership in excess of 35000, At a meeting I had with Bill before he became very ill, We discussed the rising tide of `friends` of Abbe Sensei, we agreed that this was a cry for credibility by most of these individuals making these claims. It has in recent years become more and more common to find various individuals claiming some kind of lineage to the conveniently deceased Martial Arts masters. Offering no certification or documentation or photographic evidence to ratify their claims. I said to Bill, “ Bill, If anyone should refer to themselves as a friend of Abbe Sensei, It has to be you, with your close relationship with Abbe Sensei over all those years.” Bill replied “ Harry, we all called ourselves privileged students of Sensei, perhaps I was a little more privileged than many others.” Although I have worked hard with the other organisers of the “ Kenshiro Abbe 50th Celebrations” In an effort to celebrate the life of Abbe Sensei and his achievements. I am not, and do not pretend to be an authority on Abbe Sensei I do receive many emails asking for information or simple clarification of certain events, where possible, I will offer my help or advice. For example, one Aikido Dan grade from the North East of England contacted me to say that his teacher claimed to have trained at the Hut Dojo, and to be a direct Aikido student of Abbe Sensei, graded to Dan grade in Aikido by Abbe Sensei, therefore, could he inform his students that they were `Indirect` students of Kenshiro Abbe Sensei ? The answer was no! His teacher was in fact a Judo student/teacher with the BJC and Abbe Sensei. his teacher had never trained at the Hut Dojo, he had never been graded to Dan grade in Aikido by Abbe Sensei. In fact, I had never seen this teacher practice Aikido. Unfortunately this teacher is now deceased and nothing is gained from naming names. I was later advised that when someone wrote to the organisation of this person asking for some Aikido history on their teacher, they were informed, “ It was my teacher who persuaded Harry Ellis in 1957 to leave Judo and join the Aikido section at the Hut Dojo” Total round objects !!!! I met this person for the first time in 1963. I had my first conversation with him in 1994. There was another teacher in the Midlands, who not only claimed that he was a friend of Abbe Sensei, but that his wife was also a great friend of Sensei too. The truth is that he was a student on the early 1960’s seminars where Sensei Ken Williams and I taught. He was never a direct student of Abbe Sensei or a friend. Total round objects !!! There are so many of these stories that both Gerry Gyngel and Derek Eastman and myself place this at number one. this claim is still on the offenders website, see below. “” Mr X ( deceased ) was a great friend of Kenshiro Abbe Sensei, they met when Abbe Sensei first arrived in the UK in 1955, they instantly became great friends. They would sit into the late hours deep in philosophical and psychological discussions. Total round objects !!! Those that knew Abbe Sensei will tell you that his command of the English language was almost zero when he arrived, and very poor when he left to go back to Japan. No one that I know who was associated with Abbe Sensei remembers this man. There are many such stories. We intend to protect the name of Abbe Sensei wherever possible. Henry Ellis Co-Author of Positive Aikido http://www.KenshiroAbbe.com http://www.geocities.com/britishaikido

merco876- 11-16-2008

I think in terms of knowing you are part of a traditional lineage it is important especially in confirming you are not being taught by some cowboy instructor pretending to have a long traditional history of teaching especially if you are doing traditional arts, mind you there are many traditional art teachers who just claim to be part of a lineage they are not, as Ellis sensei mentioned. However in terms of 'ability' i dont think lineage is important, you can have a modern teacher with no great lineage who is very skilled and a great instructor, some mma instructors or instructors of recent martial arts such as Keysi or JKD may not of had a long lineage of teaching but could still be great instructors and highly skilled. I would prefer a good instructor over long lineage and mediocre skill anytime. So i think it depends on the martial art a little bit, for a traditional art i would prefer to know it came from a sound traditional lineage but if just learning to fight lineage wouldnt bother me i would just want a good teacher.

andy.m- 11-20-2008

I agree with merco876, ability and lineage are two completely different things. I practise Goju Ryu Karatedo, and were very 'big' on lineage. But just because X comes from the Jundokan doesn't mean their any good. Some of the best karateka I've ever meet are Goju ryu, but also some of the worst. Were as Shotokan seems to manage to maintain some sort of minimum standard for its grades. But I digress, lineage must have a strong appeal, look at the 'Defendo' and other military combat systems. They all want to point to a lineage from W.E.fairburn and Rex Applegate.-andy ;)

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